I respect your right to gather support for a cause. I also respectfully disagree with the proposal of censorship on Substack as the best way forward.
In my opinion, squashing speech we disagree with does not make it go away, but instead creates the conditions for that speech to grow more righteous. As a parent, I see this play out between my kids and myself when I attempt to exert control -- it just becomes a righteous battle of my ego vs their ego.
Also reminds me of how the U.S. has handled terrorist groups in other countries. Instead of discovering the underlying needs and providing support there (i.e. a need for food, water, shelter, work, and safety) just demonize the terrorists as "bad" and enforce more and more restrictions, leading to more and more terrorist activity. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy -- we took away their "XYZ" and look at how bad they are being now! See, they were bad all along!
Do any of these restrictions change people or just lead them to gather somewhere else, potentially interpreting censorship as a new head on the hydra they call their enemy to justify pushing harder on their cause and having more fuel for recruitment?
"Other social media platforms have actively given reach to an enormous amount of divisive content, and moderation has amounted to private companies deciding who to deplatform based on their own agenda. Facebook has struggled with hate speech and misinformation no matter what it has tried with its moderation policies, and Twitter’s moderators have actively suppressed stories that might sway an upcoming election, among other discrepancies.
There can be no doubt that there is a lot of hateful content on the internet. But Substack has come up with the best solution yet: Giving writers and readers the freedom of speech without surfacing that speech to the masses. In your Substack Inbox, you only receive the newsletters you subscribe to. Whether you’re a reader or a writer, it is unlikely you’ll receive hateful content at all if you don’t follow it."
I share my opinion openly, I won't sign in agreement but I will also not stand in your way. Do what you feel you must do.
I'm sure you think what you are doing here is noble, however was it needed on this Substack? Couldn't it have been shared on personal publications and not ones that claim:
"Fictionistas is a space for fiction writers to get to know each other. A place we can announce virtual meetups and discuss tips and tricks that worked for us. As we grow, we welcome ideas from all fiction writers on Substack on how we can best serve each other as a community."
Should it be corrected to include:
"As we grow, we welcome ideas from all fiction writers (with approved views on monetized speech) on Substack on how we can best serve each other as a community
I enjoy the idea of being exposed to more fiction here on Substack but I can't sign on to censoring Substacks even if I disagree with everything they have to say. We are all adults here.
In closing I quote the proverb Jay-z: "If you don't like my lyrics, you can press fast forward"
I believe there's a middle ground here between 1) silence hate groups or 2) do nothing.
There are non-oppressive tools that can be employed to get at the core issue of people gathering in support of hate towards others.
We are a creative bunch here. We all have the ability to think outside the box and create something new on a daily basis.
It is reasonable say to ourselves, yes "some action" can be taken. If you're feeling that, then bless you for being alive with purpose and meaning.
If we feel called to alleviate suffering, how can we go about that in a way that does not provoke others or perpetuate suffering for a group deemed as unworthy?
I will give you some examples of ways that can reduce the harm of hate groups that do not include censorship:
1) Education and Awareness: in response to the ACLU defending the right for Nazis to demonstrate peacefully in the late 1970’s, the residents of Skokie, Illinois created the Illinois Holocaust Museum. From the ACLU website, they say that the museum “honors the lives lost in the Holocaust. So, out of the pain and anger generated by the Skokie case arose the perfect answer to the Nazis — a monument to ensure that the damage done by the Holocaust will never be forgotten.” – The Skokie Case: How I Came To Represent The Free Speech Rights Of Nazis - https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/skokie-case-how-i-came-represent-free-speech-rights-nazis
Now some answers from Chat GPT, because I am trying to find potential answers that might offer a pathway that creates conditions in which men seeking a tribe and a place to feel they belong and have power have better options available to them. Just as with terrorist groups -- I believe solutions ought to address their needs as human beings making terrible choices, instead of treating them like scum and pushing them both away and further into their righteousness (i.e. not an actual solution).
Please feel free to elaborate or discount anything that does not feel true below…
2) Community Engagement: Encouraging open dialogue within communities to address concerns, fears, and misconceptions can foster understanding and unity. Building relationships between diverse communities can create a sense of solidarity and make it harder for hate groups to gain traction.
3) Counseling and Exit Programs: Offering counseling and support programs for individuals involved in extremist groups can provide an off-ramp for those seeking to leave such ideologies behind. Programs that facilitate rehabilitation and reintegration into society for individuals who have disengaged from hate groups can be effective in preventing recidivism. https://www.lifeafterhate.org/exitusa-client/
4) Promotion of Human Rights: Emphasizing the importance of human rights and equal treatment for all can be a powerful counter-narrative against supremacist ideologies. Supporting organizations and initiatives that work to protect human rights and combat discrimination reinforces a commitment to the principles of equality and justice.
In other words, build a society around the troll that creates the conditions for trolling to become obsolete. This requires human being to human being respect.
And does that happen overnight? No, of course not. Healing never does.
What do you all make of these alternative solutions?
finally a group that was (loosely, at this point) affiliated with the marketing-heavy push of elle and her bullshit that is actually saying "hey fuck dem nazis" and not just hiding behind a very weak free speech argument on a private platform. good job Jack and Jeff
I respect your right to gather support for a cause. I also respectfully disagree with the proposal of censorship on Substack as the best way forward.
In my opinion, squashing speech we disagree with does not make it go away, but instead creates the conditions for that speech to grow more righteous. As a parent, I see this play out between my kids and myself when I attempt to exert control -- it just becomes a righteous battle of my ego vs their ego.
Also reminds me of how the U.S. has handled terrorist groups in other countries. Instead of discovering the underlying needs and providing support there (i.e. a need for food, water, shelter, work, and safety) just demonize the terrorists as "bad" and enforce more and more restrictions, leading to more and more terrorist activity. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy -- we took away their "XYZ" and look at how bad they are being now! See, they were bad all along!
Do any of these restrictions change people or just lead them to gather somewhere else, potentially interpreting censorship as a new head on the hydra they call their enemy to justify pushing harder on their cause and having more fuel for recruitment?
This post by Elle Griffin resonated with me as an alternative view on the matter: https://www.elysian.press/p/substack-writers-for-community-moderation?r=2agnvt&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
"Other social media platforms have actively given reach to an enormous amount of divisive content, and moderation has amounted to private companies deciding who to deplatform based on their own agenda. Facebook has struggled with hate speech and misinformation no matter what it has tried with its moderation policies, and Twitter’s moderators have actively suppressed stories that might sway an upcoming election, among other discrepancies.
There can be no doubt that there is a lot of hateful content on the internet. But Substack has come up with the best solution yet: Giving writers and readers the freedom of speech without surfacing that speech to the masses. In your Substack Inbox, you only receive the newsletters you subscribe to. Whether you’re a reader or a writer, it is unlikely you’ll receive hateful content at all if you don’t follow it."
I share my opinion openly, I won't sign in agreement but I will also not stand in your way. Do what you feel you must do.
I'm sure you think what you are doing here is noble, however was it needed on this Substack? Couldn't it have been shared on personal publications and not ones that claim:
"Fictionistas is a space for fiction writers to get to know each other. A place we can announce virtual meetups and discuss tips and tricks that worked for us. As we grow, we welcome ideas from all fiction writers on Substack on how we can best serve each other as a community."
Should it be corrected to include:
"As we grow, we welcome ideas from all fiction writers (with approved views on monetized speech) on Substack on how we can best serve each other as a community
I enjoy the idea of being exposed to more fiction here on Substack but I can't sign on to censoring Substacks even if I disagree with everything they have to say. We are all adults here.
In closing I quote the proverb Jay-z: "If you don't like my lyrics, you can press fast forward"
I believe there's a middle ground here between 1) silence hate groups or 2) do nothing.
There are non-oppressive tools that can be employed to get at the core issue of people gathering in support of hate towards others.
We are a creative bunch here. We all have the ability to think outside the box and create something new on a daily basis.
It is reasonable say to ourselves, yes "some action" can be taken. If you're feeling that, then bless you for being alive with purpose and meaning.
If we feel called to alleviate suffering, how can we go about that in a way that does not provoke others or perpetuate suffering for a group deemed as unworthy?
I will give you some examples of ways that can reduce the harm of hate groups that do not include censorship:
1) Education and Awareness: in response to the ACLU defending the right for Nazis to demonstrate peacefully in the late 1970’s, the residents of Skokie, Illinois created the Illinois Holocaust Museum. From the ACLU website, they say that the museum “honors the lives lost in the Holocaust. So, out of the pain and anger generated by the Skokie case arose the perfect answer to the Nazis — a monument to ensure that the damage done by the Holocaust will never be forgotten.” – The Skokie Case: How I Came To Represent The Free Speech Rights Of Nazis - https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/skokie-case-how-i-came-represent-free-speech-rights-nazis
Now some answers from Chat GPT, because I am trying to find potential answers that might offer a pathway that creates conditions in which men seeking a tribe and a place to feel they belong and have power have better options available to them. Just as with terrorist groups -- I believe solutions ought to address their needs as human beings making terrible choices, instead of treating them like scum and pushing them both away and further into their righteousness (i.e. not an actual solution).
Please feel free to elaborate or discount anything that does not feel true below…
2) Community Engagement: Encouraging open dialogue within communities to address concerns, fears, and misconceptions can foster understanding and unity. Building relationships between diverse communities can create a sense of solidarity and make it harder for hate groups to gain traction.
3) Counseling and Exit Programs: Offering counseling and support programs for individuals involved in extremist groups can provide an off-ramp for those seeking to leave such ideologies behind. Programs that facilitate rehabilitation and reintegration into society for individuals who have disengaged from hate groups can be effective in preventing recidivism. https://www.lifeafterhate.org/exitusa-client/
4) Promotion of Human Rights: Emphasizing the importance of human rights and equal treatment for all can be a powerful counter-narrative against supremacist ideologies. Supporting organizations and initiatives that work to protect human rights and combat discrimination reinforces a commitment to the principles of equality and justice.
In other words, build a society around the troll that creates the conditions for trolling to become obsolete. This requires human being to human being respect.
And does that happen overnight? No, of course not. Healing never does.
What do you all make of these alternative solutions?
finally a group that was (loosely, at this point) affiliated with the marketing-heavy push of elle and her bullshit that is actually saying "hey fuck dem nazis" and not just hiding behind a very weak free speech argument on a private platform. good job Jack and Jeff